tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.comments2016-05-22T16:15:24.448-07:00The Atheist's WayEric Maiselhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03616912091956978071noreply@blogger.comBlogger232125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-49256338192703569152011-08-25T22:05:23.945-07:002011-08-25T22:05:23.945-07:00Whatever it's origin may be, I found AA to be ...Whatever it's origin may be, I found AA to be as far from Evangelical Christianity as imaginable.<br /><br />The 12 steps speak of a God "as we see him", and does not include ANY dogma as to who that is,or what he wants us to do.<br /><br />I almost puked when I read the steps the first time. Not until I heard people share their experiences, I realized this had NOTHING to do with religion.<br /><br />It is about fellowship with other alcoholics, deflating one's ego, rigorous honesty, and living in the present, not the past or future.<br /><br />It's true that the God talk may prevent some people from sobering up.<br /><br />Then again, if the the fear of being indoctrinated weighs heavier on a person than the desire to stay alive, that person probably isn't going to get sober anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-68319656725576770132011-08-08T18:56:19.822-07:002011-08-08T18:56:19.822-07:00It is not necessarily easy for an alcoholic atheis...It is not necessarily easy for an alcoholic atheist to hang around with the despised 'G' word on the wall long enough to realise that they are welcome to define their Higher Power in anyway that works. There is a whole atheist sub-culture in 12-step programs that allows them to do the steps with a G.O.D. of their understanding, ie Groups Of Drunks/Druggies (the fellowship), Great Out-Doors (Nature, the Universe), Good Orderly Direction. Here in inner-urban Melbourne, Australia , I rarely hear God talk and most people seem to define their Higher Power in non-theist terms which reflects the wider local culture, whereas other parts of the country you do hear God talk which again reflects the local culture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-85737914361635354242010-10-01T11:47:22.395-07:002010-10-01T11:47:22.395-07:00Wow...this is very beautiful. I wish there "c...Wow...this is very beautiful. I wish there "churches" for atheists that spilled this sort of wisdom from the pulpit. I think if there were more institutions spreading THIS message (rather than some of the more condescending arguments I've heard), that fundamentalists would eventually loosen their grip on their irrational beliefs. Most people just need to know that there would be "something" there to catch them, and that's why many can't let go of their superstitions-- even the ones who have started to notice inconsistencies. But in reality, this way of looking at the world is so much more fulfilling...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-4693965993423994872010-01-17T07:05:54.243-08:002010-01-17T07:05:54.243-08:00Starting your own group is slow going. You have to...Starting your own group is slow going. You have to be upfront enough to admit to the at-large AA community in your town that you are atheist, and that you are starting your own group. <br /><br />You won't get many people to show up at first, but then a core group will begin to show up every week, and along with them a few who just want to check your group out and see if you are for real. <br /><br />And when Anonymous on Jan 14 said he is now a "member", did he mean of my online Google Group? Yes, as a member you can see the email addresses. No one else can.Atheist AAhttp://groups.google.com/group/atheist-aanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-86236951493827425412010-01-14T16:03:06.392-08:002010-01-14T16:03:06.392-08:00Now that I am a member, will my email address be v...Now that I am a member, will my email address be visible/searchable when I post? I notice in the group, I can see members email addresses.<br /><br />Still posting anonymously in the mean time. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-46364412240507566492010-01-06T07:36:16.576-08:002010-01-06T07:36:16.576-08:00It's a nice thought, (which had already occurr...It's a nice thought, (which had already occurred to me) ... create my own group. However, I know of no atheists in my club house or home group. The closest thing I have found is a few buddhists, which is a philosophy I am not particularly interested in either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-29506669577610205962010-01-05T01:29:09.218-08:002010-01-05T01:29:09.218-08:00Do what I did if you have no secular place to go--...Do what I did if you have no secular place to go--make one! As I said in an earlier post, I helped create an atheist A.A. group, and the New York office (GSO) gave it a registration number. That surprised me, but I was grateful. Don't expect a huge gathering unless you live in a large city and really publicize the group on a large scale among the other groups. But it can be done, and it's my favorite meeting.<br /><br />I also started a Google group for atheist AAs. Click on my name to go there.atheist AAhttp://groups.google.com/group/atheist-aanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-50657921967209590212010-01-04T08:35:46.191-08:002010-01-04T08:35:46.191-08:00The success rate of AA, by their own research and ...The success rate of AA, by their own research and admission is 3-5%.(Sober after one year of attending AA meetings.)<br /><br />Now sober for 8 years, I went into my first AA meeting as an agnostic. I got a "higher power" which I have since realized was myself... and am now back to rational (call it agnostic or atheist).<br /><br />Although I live in a large metropolitan area, there are no secular recovery meetings close by. Thus, I still attend AA, for the contact with other alcoholics.<br /><br />AA could absolutely to better if it were reorganized on the basis of reason, and fact ... but that is not to be, because it is a cult, by definition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-20610141420447958652009-08-19T15:13:18.455-07:002009-08-19T15:13:18.455-07:00Atheists and agnostics are right in most of their ...Atheists and agnostics are right in most of their thinking <br /><br />It has been common among religious believers to look with misgiving at atheists and agnostics, and to think that they are mistaken; however, in many instances the opposite is the truth; some religious beliefs are not just baseless, but obsolete and irrelevant. It is unbelievable how myths and a religious fantasy have influenced human minds with more strength than reality!<br /><br />Most people don’t dare to confront their religious doubts; they are afraid of abandoning the “certainty” of their convictions, and opt for the status quo. The “God” of main line traditions simply does not exist. I accepted the challenge of finding the One who may be recognized even by agnostics and atheists, and came to the conclusion that God isn’t other than the Existence itself; and the Existence is, “I am,” the total existence, “All-That-Is.” There is probably a single issue in which I do not agree with atheists: I believe that “there is no effect without cause.”<br /><br />There is a book most probably not written for you, but perhaps useful for some of your religious friends who still think that you are wrong and they are right: “Christianity Reformed From ist Roots.” It might help them to be relieved of the illusion, as I did myself. Distinguished philosophers and thinkers might give you an idea of this book—perhaps a generation ahead of time for most believers—(links below); or you might look at excerpts at Amazon.com.<br /><br />Jairo Mejia, M. Psych., Santa Clara University<br />Episcopal Priest, Retired<br />Carmel Valley, California<br /><br />http://www.mbay.net/~jmejia/Grudzen.htm<br />http://www.mbay.net/~jmejia/Churcher.htmJairo Mejiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15828465744150570777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-16778963712184100482009-08-13T19:26:53.131-07:002009-08-13T19:26:53.131-07:00It's all well and good to debate the success o...It's all well and good to debate the success of AA but for me the real question is where else Atheist alcoholics can go? I'm not seeing anyone offering alternatives.David Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-64095455599546665022009-05-25T09:01:16.478-07:002009-05-25T09:01:16.478-07:00excellent post thanks.excellent post thanks.Donna Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12456352318216873030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-38258507267826468072009-05-16T13:27:00.000-07:002009-05-16T13:27:00.000-07:00can anyone tell me of a non-religious aa meeting g...can anyone tell me of a non-religious aa meeting going on anywhere near towson md? If so contact landis.thomas7@gmail.com thanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-46794824916088731832009-04-29T12:44:00.000-07:002009-04-29T12:44:00.000-07:00Great post, Dave!
Although I haven't yet read Eric...Great post, Dave!<br />Although I haven't yet read Eric's book (it's on my list!), I've read and enjoyed your book, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Secular-Wholeness-Skeptics-Paths-Richer/dp/155369175X" REL="nofollow">Secular Wholeness</A>.<br /><br />While I value the work of the current crop of high profile atheist writers, I think Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens only bring their audience to a certain point, and it is at that point many individuals ask themselves, "Okay, I don't believe in God, now what?" I'm glad to see there are authors out there who are filling a need in the atheist/agnostic community, beyond what the popular polemics offer.Steelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09612062887585525213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-39711149705154323002009-04-29T12:43:00.000-07:002009-04-29T12:43:00.000-07:00Great post, Dave!
Although I haven't yet read Eric...Great post, Dave!<br />Although I haven't yet read Eric's book (it's on my list!), I've read and enjoyed your book, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Secular-Wholeness-Skeptics-Paths-Richer/dp/155369175X" REL="nofollow">Secular Wholeness</A>.<br /><br />While I value the work of the current crop of high profile atheist writers, I think Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens only bring their audience to a certain point, and it is at that point many individuals ask themselves, "Okay, I don't believe in God, now what?" I'm glad to see there are authors out there who are filling a need in the atheist/agnostic community, beyond what the popular polemics offer.Steelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09612062887585525213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-88849513852001736122009-04-28T12:08:00.000-07:002009-04-28T12:08:00.000-07:00Yes. As an atheist, I find art to be a great spiri...Yes. As an atheist, I find art to be a great spiritual path.Justinhttp://bornagainblog.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-57590393260603671162009-04-28T09:50:00.000-07:002009-04-28T09:50:00.000-07:00I think there are a lot of people, theist or not w...I think there are a lot of people, theist or not who don't equate being spiritual with religion. We can all have feelings of awe and wonder while looking at a majestic nature scene, some see that as spiritual and some do not. No woo needed.Mike aka MonolithTMAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385705390882035829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-53438511157210619142009-04-24T15:24:00.000-07:002009-04-24T15:24:00.000-07:00Very well stated!Very well stated!Buffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328034026300036704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-77905958156333480992009-04-17T14:21:00.000-07:002009-04-17T14:21:00.000-07:00You're correct: AA does a lousy job of meeting the...You're correct: AA does a lousy job of meeting the needs of atheists. So here in Kalamazoo, MI I started an AA group for atheists. It is registered with AA International as a legitimate group. I also started a Google group http://groups.google.com/group/atheist-aa<br />And since I'm a writer, I wanted to do a web site on the subject called "The Atheist AA" http://www.atheistaa.org/<br /><br />And to Eric Haas: Yes, AA has a low success rate because they don't operate the way they did in the first decade. In the first years they sought out members and indocrinated them. That worked well at getting people sober. The indocrination has largely stopped, and people must now find their own reasons for being in AA and for remaining in AA. For some people that is a difficult thing to do. The way AA is operated today is very much different than in 1935/45.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06103314125051611094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-55661234371288148302009-02-17T07:05:00.000-08:002009-02-17T07:05:00.000-08:00I didn't know that the call was a prank, but it ce...I didn't know that the call was a prank, but it certainly illustrates other people who do believe such nonsense. Such as Kirk Cameron and people like him.Melissa LaFavershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13404079012126846264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-36212919576119793322009-02-16T17:07:00.000-08:002009-02-16T17:07:00.000-08:00I'm wondering if some of the issues with "River" r...I'm wondering if some of the issues with "River" religions that you mention aren't inherent to all organized religion. I'm an agnostic atheist who has found some insight and clarity from studying Buddhism (particularly Zen). There is a lot in Buddhism that does not presuppose or depend on supernatural beings or events. One needn't attend a temple or dharma center to be a Buddhist. Check out Stephen Batchelor's "Buddhism Without Beliefs". He writes that the Buddha's teachings were about things to do rather than believe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-80290608282801260962009-02-16T08:42:00.000-08:002009-02-16T08:42:00.000-08:00I like Melanie's point, and agree. I have limited...I like Melanie's point, and agree. I have limited Zen experience, and came to it because some local health-care based, non-religious, stress-reduction workshops advocate trying meditation simply as a way to train yourself to stop ruminating and calm your own anxieties, and for me it works. But I almost immediately found in the Zen meditation world that things can be judgmental and doctrinaire - for example, sitting in full Lotus is "better" and sitting in Burmese position is "acceptable but not as good as full Lotus." You know what makes one position different from the other? The sitter's flexibility and ability to fold up feet onto opposing thighs. That's all. <BR/><BR/>So, to put so much emphasis on being able to twist and bend the knee and ankle just so...so you only get to enlightenment if you are naturally flexible and pain-tolerant...that just makes no sense. That was my nearly immediate beginning of the end with the possibility of belief in the system.<BR/><BR/>A friend has joined a local temple's "taking your practice to a higher level" program, and as part of that does Guiding Teacher meetings. The students wait with hands folded in the (Christian) prayer position until called by a bell, and then ascend two flights of stairs to bow to and meet with the teacher, hands steepled all the while. Uh, no thanks.<BR/><BR/>I'm also more than a little troubled by what seems to be an emphasis on acceptance that becomes passivity. Being actively angry and reactive all of the time is not good, that is true, but accepting too much is no good either - that becomes passive acceptance of injustice, misfortune and less than full work towards a quality life of one's own. Again, no thank you. Apparently even many young Tibetans are frustrated with the passive, accomodating nature of their religion to Chinese violence and oppression, so the only people less-than-satisfied with this mindset are not limited to the world of American converts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-81587877673747481932009-02-15T12:45:00.000-08:002009-02-15T12:45:00.000-08:00I really admire your courage, and Barbara's, for v...I really admire your courage, and Barbara's, for voicing what many of us think secretly. I have friends and family members who are adherents of the river religions, and use those doctrines to judge us non-believers with the same zealotry a fervent god-religionist might yield. They're highly intolerant of critique or questioning, but eager to point out when the rest of us fall short of their professed ideals. Is this a state of satori, or neurosis?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-83556891042116181652009-02-15T12:42:00.000-08:002009-02-15T12:42:00.000-08:00EM: I'm glad you're blogging. I'm about half way t...EM: <BR/><BR/>I'm glad you're blogging. I'm about half way through the book (I started it a couple of hours ago).<BR/><BR/>Not being an atheist (depending on your definition), I didn't think I was going to like the book, but I'm enjoying it a great deal.<BR/><BR/>I look forward to the virtual book tour.skeptimalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01380245121370373104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-34513904962175826122009-02-04T21:12:00.000-08:002009-02-04T21:12:00.000-08:00While there are people that take the banana argume...While there are people that take the banana argument seriously, the call in question is a prank. <BR/><BR/>http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2008/07/yesterdays-show.html<BR/><BR/>http://atheistgirls.blogspot.com/2008/07/microbiologychick-has-been-bad-girl.html<BR/><BR/>I kind of regret doing it now because so many people have been taken in by it, but it was fun. :)Beth Presswood https://www.blogger.com/profile/13082350132777360891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1228544473034487906.post-15607398737863751702009-02-04T06:36:00.000-08:002009-02-04T06:36:00.000-08:00At one time, AA had an extremely high success rate...At one time, AA had an extremely high success rate, because its members would go out and find alcoholics who were at their "bottom," then within a matter of 24 or 48 hours walked them through all 12 steps, including getting on their knees and praying to God to remove them of their obsession. There is scientific proof that praying does something to the mind that makes the act of prayer work in a psychological manner. The science does not--and cannot--prove that praying to God is actually heard by any God. That is where faith comes in.<BR/>But because modern AA organizations have backed off from such aggressive means of converting practicing alcoholics into sober alcoholics, the success rate has fallen dramatically. Now it only works for someone who, all by himself using his own will power, finds it within him or herself to want to be sober. The "fellowship" of being a member is a good force for many, because they find they have others with the same problem to talk to.<BR/>It is that fellowship that works for me in AA. I am openly atheist, and I talk about atheism in my groups.<BR/>I, too, write a blog. January 1, 2009, I published "God, Prejudice, and Alcoholics Anonymous" at http://freeassemblage.blogspot.com/2009/01/god-prejudice-and-alcoholics-anonymous.html You can also find it posted on Scribd, where it is now winding up on many readers' Favorites List.<BR/>I hope it helps other atheists understand AA.<BR/>Curtis Edward ClarkCurtis Edward Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14432810735763087543noreply@blogger.com